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    May 5th, 2012 @ 10:37 am by Kevin

    I’d like to hear some responses to this guy’s arguments.



leave a comment on this post (10 Comments)

  1. I posted a comment on the video — but I wonder whether this brother has put much time into conceptualizing eternal conscious torment. I can’t imagine that anyone who has could be comfortable with the idea that this is something God, whose mercy endures forever, actually does to people.

  2. It’s interesting that the fellow seems to think that 1 week of being grounded is just punishment for stealing candy, fighting over a toy, and murder. I get his point that duration of punishment has no relevance to the time it took to commit the crime.

    We’re kind of obsessed with punishment as a length of time served. If the punishment is actually intended to be corrective, I don’t think God just makes us ‘serve time’ somewhere.

  3. Bundesbedenkenträger May 5, 2012 at 1:24 pm

    Basically one could really argue he was right. If there ever was a decision pro or contra God (which I don’t believe). One problem that remains (a bit) is the eternal part of the whole thing, but hey, the shot sister will also remain dead for eternity (well, for this earthly life), so why should eternal damnation not be appropriate?
    I’d go even further and question the whole concept of just and unjust: Where do we get our definitions of just and unjust from? Who says what is just and what not? If from anybody, then definately from God. So if God said it was a just punishment to burn for eternity in hell for eating candy (or pork or…), it was just, period.
    Now there are many ifs and that’s the point. God is predictable to some extent,a nd a vast part of that predictability has to do with His love for people (if you are unsure about this, read Jona, who knew exactly beforehand – at least he says so – what would happen to Ninive in the end).
    This thing of sending people to hell just doesn’t fit too much in what we understand by “love”. So it makes no sense claiming that God was both, loving and just in a way that would allow to send people to hell for eternity.

  4. Ronald Murphy April 28, 2012 at 10:20 pm
    I’ve enjoyed reading “Hope Beyond Hell” and other books that I have studied such as “Christ Triumphant”, by Thomas Allin (19th century Church of England minister and scholar), and other books of research that have revealed what the Literal Translation of the Bible and the primative, apostolic church believed for the first 5 centuries of church history (although some of the church fathers believed in keeping the final universal reconciliation in reserve for the “esoteric scholarly saints”, for fear that it might lead to more evil and crimes amoung the heathen–using a scripture, “don’t cast your pearls before swine”, as a reason). I first came to this truth in 1971, after finding and studying: “Young’s Literal translation of the Bible and “Young’s Analytical Concordance of the Bible”. I only hope that this movie (whatever it depicts Hell as) will not mislead people into thinking that there is no Hell at all–that Hell is only unconsciouness in the grave. The Bible does not teach this, neither did the primative, apostolic church; but that Hell is a real place to purge away sinfulness, evils and wickedness–not punish souls forever!

  5. He needs to see the video “Hell–has it always been forever?” by George Sarros and read the book “Hope beyond Hell” by Gerry Beauchemin and many other books (many are listed on your Resources Links) on the truth of God’s eternal love and His final full reconciliation!

  6. Actually this guy is not just any joe shmow. He works for Stand To Reason, very reputable for their apologetics. His whole job is to argue these types of things. I wish he’d read and engage some of the universal reconciliation stuff too. He is gracious enough to say we are still Christians, unlike many others. Looks like he is going to be doing a series on hell. We’ll have to keep our eyes out for what more they have to say about it.

    • Brett’s a friend of mine and while I disagree with him he’s far more understanding than many. As Amy said, he told me personally he believes Universalists can be Christians, and he had no quarrel to pick on us Universalists. He may not agree but he’s a really super guy.

      With that said, I find the logic presented here totally void of reason. God often pays back MORE than what the crime calls for in terms of retribution. But I would argue that God does so in justice because he’s always willing to do what is necessary to bring a person to repentance. But if God should give up on anyone, then he doesn’t love them with the love of Cor 13.

  7. this guy is frankly sickening. he uses his kids to illustrate punishment, and then in the next breath says that god will condemn his children to eternal punishment. so, sir, will you condemn your children forever? hrm?

  8. The point of the original argument is that the judgment is INFINITE for a FINITE crime. His analogy about a week-long judgment for a few seconds of sin does not fit. A finite judgment for a finite sin is just, an eye for an eye. You could also have a very long period of sin with a relatively brief judgment, and have that just as well.

    Why does he say that the nature of the crime determines the punishment after his illustration? His punishments were all the same despite the different natures of his children’s crimes. Maybe his illustration only represents his first response about the duration of a crime not fitting the degree of punishment. Also, notice how his judgments on correcting his children reflects his belief about God. Punitive blanket punishments that will probably leave his children bitter and only “behave” later to avoid punishment rather than desiring to obey out of love because of how his disciplining hand reveals who he is and what they mean to him.

    This doesn’t even touch on the reasons for WHY we sin, our condition of ignorance and mortality ON WHICH we sin, or what this reveals about our Creator. Why were his children fighting, stealing, and killing? Did he fail (sin) as a parent? Were they just being rebellious? Were they incapable of obeying him as immature children?

    We all have rejected God. We all fall short of His glory, none seek after Him, no not one. Therefore, we all deserve infinite punishment? No, therefore, His grace is given the full due of His glory! It’s all of Him! He subjects the creation to vanity NOT voluntarily but in expectation to be freed from (not eternally punished in) the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God. He locks up all in stubbornness SO THAT He might show mercy on all. My Yahweh has become my Yeshua, or salvation, the name of Jesus. How could I ever know Jesus, my salvation, if I was never lost?

  9. Well, he doesn’t have a problem because he doesn’t think he is going.

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